Buckle Up and For the People (2024)

UndeddJester Member Posts: 2,344

August 2023 edited August 2023

Pardon my ignorance... by how does FTP not work with MFT?

I went looking up the perks to check what you were talking aboit, and i cant see anything that describes MFT doesn't work with FTP... but I'm actually looking at the descriptions of FTP and Buckle Up and I now think that the 2 working together might be a bug...

The trivia section for FTP states:

"For the People is a Health-State Switcher, meaning it tells Dead by Daylight to instantly change your and the other Survivor's Health State to a different one.

• This switch is not considered a Healing Action by other game mechanics or other Perks."

Buckle Up states:

"Whenever you finish healing another Survivor from the Dying State to the Injured State, Buckle Up applies its effects for the next 6/8/10 seconds."

These 2 points contradict each other... Buckle expressly states healing a survivor from ten dying State.... FTP expressly states its a health state swap... not healing. I may actually raise this as a bug in the bug reporting section...

August 2023

On 7.0.0 PTB End Transmission MFT and For the People could work together. After testing before it hit live servers they adjusted it so they wouldn't work together on 7.0.0. LIVE:

But now we have Buckle Up which is actually stronger since it applies endurance to both survivors and it works with For the People since it counts as picking someone up the ground and not a health state. Both the picked up survivor and the person who used For the People will have endurance for a long time.

Which is kind of weird because they made sure MFT wouldn't work like that because it would be doing too much. But functionally stronger version of it made it to live which is Buckle Up.

TheTom20 Member Posts: 389

August 2023

August 2023 edited August 2023

Yeah I played couple of killer matches and it leads to an awkward situation where you can't down 2 survivors for some time and it's a lose-lose situation.

It reminds me of the very old busted version of Borrowed Time where after an unhook both survivors would gain endurance.

Also it's like a free version of WGLF without you needing tokens? Why use WGLF now? Like there's no consistency whatsoever.

Mandy Administrator, Dev, Community Manager Dev∙Community Manager › Posts: 22,430

August 2023

August 2023

So for the endurance status effect to matter at all you would have to been injured but Buckle Up can still bypass this mechanic with the help of For the People?

Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,320

August 2023

That screenshot is from the DBD wiki, and it says For The People isn't supposed to be considered a Healing Action. Is the wiki correct? Because I was under the impression the perk is supposed to be a health state SWITCH, and not actually a healing action.

WilliamSN Member Posts: 524

August 2023

This issue with Buckle up is the fact that its essentially "Previous perk but better"

Why use WGLF when it requires a token + only provides endurance to the picked up , when you have Buckle up doing it to both for the same ammount of time, without requiring a token?

Previous Buckle up was fine ,10% haste after being picked up for both.

Perk effects need to be unique and not fall into "previous perk but better" territory and were seeing this more and more, MFT is a better Dark Theory , BT was made absolete with the basekit BT mechanic, now Buckle up is a better WGLF...

If the goal at BHVR is to diversify the perk usage, yall should start by looking as to why certain perks are used and their effects, not make/turn previous perks into "I Win buttons"

Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 6,829

August 2023 edited August 2023

your not reading buckle up perk properly. it does not matter that FTP is not health switch. what matter is what buckle up reads:

unlocks potential in your Aura-reading ability.

While healing another Survivor in the dying, Buckle Up activates:

The auras of the Killer is revealed to both you and the healed Survivor.

Completing the heal grants both of you the Endurance Status Effect for 6/8/10 seconds.

--

there is nothing in description that says complete about fully healing an equivalent of one full health-state . it is on/off perk where when it is on, you are granted 2 effects. healing shows both survivors the killer aura and both of you are granted endurance effect for same 10 seconds. the combination is entirely intended for how perk reads.

UndeddJester Member Posts: 2,344

August 2023

Oh Duh!

The endurance effect. Fair, I'm an idiot. Cheers for clearing that up for me xD

August 2023

It's like changes are made then forgotten about and they are so inconsistent.

💫 Buckle Up buffed to be a better version of WGLF and combos with FTP even though they didn't want that to happen before with MFT?

💫 Boil Over was nerfed to %80 because %100 was doing "too much" but since the new wiggle system it's basically back to being %100?

💫 Pain res was changed where you didn't let go off the gen so it wouldn't combo with Dead man switch or Merciless Storm but then they work together again now for some reason?

Like... hello? It's kinda funny.

Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,320

August 2023

The wiki description literally says "Whenever you finish healing another Survivor from the Dying State to the Injured State". The word "HEALING" is clearly there. You even literally quoted "Completing the heal" as the trigger for the endurance status effect

Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 6,829

August 2023 edited August 2023

yes but it is saying completing heal. that just means when you go from dying state to injured, the effect triggers. i think this assuming that it does not matter how you get there. the activation requirement to get there is healing when someone is in dying state. the combo is intended to work with how buckle up reads. the wiki is talking about the interaction with second-wind/renewal perk that Steve has. it used to be long time ago that if you used For the people with second wind/renewal, you would not activate second wind because the game for second wind only counts charges healed. it works now but it is slightly buggy.

all the combo reminds me is why i do not enjoy playing killer that lose to bodyblocking......

Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,320

August 2023

No. Completing a heal involves the healing action, and the wiki states "This switch is not considered a Healing Action by other game mechanics or other Perks". If the wiki is incorrect, then someone from BHVR should tell us, so the wiki can be fixed.

If the perk had meant "just go from dying to injured by any means possible", than the word "heal" shouldn't have been used.

Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 6,829

August 2023 edited August 2023

i think it is just confusing because healing in dying state and healing injured state is same thing. i think wiki is referencing the perk not granting healing charges for perks like second wind but I remember an otz video explaining that interaction does work now but it is slightly buggy. wiki is outdated sometimes.

August 2023

Buckle up: "Completing the heal grants..."

You said: "Nothing says complete a healing action."

Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 6,829

August 2023

i wrote that wrong. i corrected it. what i mean is that it is not meaning to say that you need to heal a full health-state manually to trigger the effect. you just need to finish it and for the people does finish the entire health-state.

Alionis Member Posts: 969

August 2023 edited August 2023

People just cheese these mechanics by healing for a second or two before triggering For the People. The game will then think that the couple of charges input into the action were what caused the full heal, not FtP, and consider it a completed healing action.

It's why Ftp and MtF worked together before that behavior was fixed.

The wiki usually ignores "techs" and just tells how things should work, if not abused and used as intended. That has nothing to do with being outdated or something.

Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 6,829

August 2023

yes but with buckle up, it does not have that issue. I don't think second wind interaction is inherently unfair interaction either. I think it has to do with how they code it. if you code it as function where p1 loses health-state and P2 gains health-state then you will get weird interactions. if you code it as p1 gives 16 health charges or 32 charges when healing from dying state to P2 then p1 becomes injured then interaction should work in all cases.

Alionis Member Posts: 969

August 2023 edited August 2023

I'm 99.99% sure that it's not coded to give a set amount of charges, because those would overflow into the next health state, which we know it doesn't do if, for example, you heal an already partially recovered survivor to injured.

Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,320

August 2023

That’s not confusing at all, because both healing actions are the same thing, they’re just starting from different health states.

The wiki is explaining the perk is supposed to act as a health state switch, so it’s not really using a heal action. I also don’t understand why BHVR can’t just tell us how they intend the perk to work. I thought we were supposed to have “more transparency”, and there are multiple threads complaining about this perk combo.

ReverseVelocity Member Posts: 3,146

August 2023 edited August 2023

WGLF applies a massive healing speed bonus to Survivors in the Dying State. Buckle Up does no such thing. In terms of applying Endurance, Buckle Up is better, but for actually getting Survivors off the ground, WGLF wins here.

Previous Buckle Up was not fine, it was pretty objectively terrible.

August 2023

Well healing bonus is irrelevant when you can just insta-heal using For the People and Buckle Up instead.

I agree that previous Buckle Up was bad but I don't understand this new trend of slapping endurance and haste to every perk now instead of coming up with something fun.

ReverseVelocity Member Posts: 3,146

August 2023

Not really, Buckle Up + FTP are two perks, WGLF is one.

Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 6,829

August 2023 edited August 2023

you rarely ever heal people on the ground. you let them recover to 95% then you heal them. I think he means it is irrelevant due to the behaviour of slugging.

WilliamSN Member Posts: 524

August 2023

Buckle up was a fine perk, the only reason people think it was "not good" is because theres 5-6 survivor perks that are miles above the other 128 to the point of making them irrelevant , if those were brought down in line, Buckle up's 10% haste would be considered very good.

Theres not a single instance where the WGLF speed boost comes in useful, if a surv goes down and is slugged for more than 20 seconds, you can bet he has the recovery up to 90% , Will the recovery heal boost from WGLF be much of a difference in those 10%? realistically no.

If the killer is far away, the downed surv has 90%d his recovery so WGLF has no effect.

If the killer is close and you try to get WGLF recovery boost value you'll likely go down or trade places with your tm, so you end up getting no value.

BHVR has to learn some day, to stop making perks work as straight upgrades, but instead make perks a sidegrade to basekit. (if you do X side action, you get to use Y benefit, much like WGLF)

ReverseVelocity Member Posts: 3,146

August 2023

I hate to break it to you but Buckle Up was garbage regardless of what other perks exist. Buckle Up was considered to be one of the worst perks in the game for years.

You'd have to nerf a lot more than 5-6 perks to make Buckle Up (before the rework) look good in comparison to the rest of them. Maybe if you said 80-100 you'd be more along the right lines.

sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 6,536

August 2023 edited August 2023

As someone who tried to use the 10% Haste version of Buckle Up several times, it was not that strong, at all. You needed the killer to slug for it to work and even when they did, there was no guarantee it would get you away from the killer or the killer may not be nearby anyways, making the effect pointless.

While I understand the reasoning behind this and why FTP doesn’t work with MFT, but does work with Buckle Up, the synergy with Buckle Up doesn’t really have any counterplay for the killer. The killer has 2 options:

1. Down the injured survivor. If they do this, FTP can be used during the hit cooldown with no risk and now the killer can’t down either survivor.
2. Hit the healthy survivor to prevent FTP from being used. If they do this, they’ve just given the injured survivor distance rather than getting a down.

Either way, you end up with both survivors injured and lose the down. I’m perfectly fine with Buckle Up being a strong anti-slug perk, but it’s not slugging when the killer doesn’t get an opportunity to pick up in the first place.

A possible fix would be making it so that the slugged survivor who is picked up gets Endurance no matter what, but in order for the healer (the perk owner) to get Endurance, they have to be injured, which would eliminate the synergy for the same reason FTP doesn’t work with MFT. This gives the killer a counterplay option since they can now down the Buckle Up user instead, but still offers protection to the other survivor they downed originally which may be beneficial to the team. This also keeps Buckle Up mostly the same when not used with FTP, as Endurance is most valuable when injured and doesn’t matter when healthy in most situations.

WilliamSN Member Posts: 524

August 2023

Buckle up was only "weak" until 6.5.0 , the 10% haste is a very good effect for a pickup.

Problem is, survivor mains only consider perks to be good if they offer a second chance /erase a mistake.

Second chance / Mistake erasers never feel good to play against and have no place in the game.

Again, a balanced perk provides you with benefits for doing a specific action. WGLF is a perfect example.

Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 6,829

August 2023

if the killer is away from the slug then you do not need 10% haste. when the killer is right next to the survivor that is slugged, the killer can hit the survivor you heal right back on the floor.

explain why you think survivor should equip that perk.

they consider the perk good if it improves their odds of escaping. buckle up was not improving their chance of escaping. survivors want to escape as well.

WilliamSN Member Posts: 524

August 2023

And if the killer is far away, you dont need endurance either...? You'd be better off with 10% haste to speed to the nearest gen or a safe spot to heal.

Stop warping the words, survivors consider perks to be good if they offer a second chance / erase a mistake. every single perk increases your chances at escaping, but 120 of those dont put the killer in a Lose-lose situation like current Buckle up does.

By all intents and purposes going for a pickup in the killers face is a *massive mistake* , a perk allowing you to make a *massive mistake* and get positive benefits from it , is not healthy.

Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 6,829

August 2023

the killer is camping the slug. if the survivor has very little bleed out timer left, you will not be able to rescue them without buckle up and FTP.

the irony of second chance perks with lose/lose is that all second chance perks for survivor end up being allegedly countered by eating second chance and re-downing the survivor. I am not entirely sure if that is healthy but that is just how it currently works.

WilliamSN Member Posts: 524

August 2023

If you somehow get "slugged and camped" for 4 minutes and the gens aren't done... boy oh boy what is your team doing, this argument is invalid.

being forced to eat trough endurance is a lose lose situation, they get picked up, 10s of endurance, you hit them they get speed boost and make it to the next loop. you dont hit them, and they make it to the next loop either way. its the purest definition of a lose lose situation, theres no counterplay to it and you're forced to take another 20-30 second chase.

These kind of scenarios are extremely unhealthy and just discourage people from playing the killer role or forces them to gravitate towards Nurse, Blight, Spirit , Wesker , etc etc.

Devil_hit11 Member Posts: 6,829

August 2023

i am not saying slugging too prominent because average dbd survivor game has killer hooking more then slugging but if a killer does not hook and slugs entire game. eventually your bleed out timer will become lower and lower. if it reaches like 60 seconds remaining, a killer might choose to camp you to get the kill similar to how killer camp hooks. buckle up can save you in those situations without killer downing either of you.

I mean yeah. that is what strong second chance perks do. they make you waste time.

sure because those killers waste less time against second chance perks. they can re-down the survivor quickly.

August 2023

Well it's not really fair to pull out a "survivor main" argument here since everybody uses perks to gain an advantage otherwise no reason to use them. Both sides have second chance perks and it's okay.

Also I'm a survivor main who made this topic and acknowledge that this combo can be annoying and busted sometimes I don't see any "killer main" making this a topic.

Also sorry I can't pretend old Buckle Up was even slightly good. It definitely needed a change but I think they could've turned it into something else instead of slapping endurance and haste to it like with every perk nowadays.

WilliamSN Member Posts: 524

August 2023

And again you bring up the 1 in a million slug scenario to justify Buckle up's existance.... meanwhile forget to realize that if the killer downed you enough times for your "bleed out timer" to be under 60 seconds, you're probably losing either way OR your SWF is running a bully build that forces the killer to slug, and at that point you can't justify giving bully swfs a second chance perk for pickups.

You agree that second chance perks are lose lose situations, so we're both aware they are unbalanced, good.

And guess what happens once survivors are forced to go against 10x weskers in a row because of BS second chances? they'll complain the game is "stale and theres no variety", while they themselves run the same 4 second chance perks every match.

January 13

sizzlingmario4 Member Posts: 6,536

January 13

Yes, they originally worked together but because of the injured requirement it was considered a bug and thus it was removed.